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Wed, Apr. 5th, 2006, 05:27 pm
A spy in their midst... HBP question
"Tell me, how have you been communicating with Rosemerta? I thought we had all methods of communication in and out of the school monitored." "Enchanted coins," said Malfoy, as though he was compelled to keep talking, though his wand whand was shaking badly. "I had one and she had the other and I could send her messages--" "Isn't that the secret method of communication the group that called themselves Dumbledore's Army used last year?" asked Dumbledore. His voice was light and conversational, but Harry saw him slip an inch lower down the wall as he said it. "Yeah, I got the idea from them," said Malfoy, with a twisted smile. "I got the idea of poisoning the mead from the Mudblood Granger as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognizing potions." HBP, p 389 This just jumped out at me. How did Draco know how the DA was communicating? Then, I answered myself. Marietta Edgecomb, of course. So I went to OotP to verify that and... chapter and verse: Order of the Phoenix, Chapter 27 The Centaur and the Sneak. (p 612-5) Just after the Inquisitorial Squad busts up the planned DA meeting, Umbridge and Fudge are in Dumbledore's office with Potter and McGonagall. Umbridge brings Marietta in as a witness and tries to get Marietta to tell them what she knows. Marietta refuses. "Oh, very well, you silly girl, I'll tell him," snapped Umbridge. She hitched her sickly smile back onto her face and said, "Well, Minister, Miss Edgecombe here came to my office shortly after dinner this evening and told me she had something she wanted to tell me. She said that if I proceeded to a secret room on the seventh floor, sometimes known as the Room of Requirement, I would find out something to my advantage. I questioned her a little further and she admitted that there was to be some kind of meeting there. Unfortunately at that point this hex," she waved impatiently at Marietta's concealed face, "came into operation and upon catching sight of her face in my miror the girl became too distressed to tell me any more." There's some more conversation, wherein Fudge attempts to convince Marietta to speak, and Marietta refuses, but Umbridge suggests Marietta just shake or nod her head as to whether or not she's been attending these meetings all year. Then Harry hears Kingsley Shacklebolt whisper something behind him and feels something pass his ear. Marietta's eyes become blank and she shakes her head, repeatedly. DUmbledore concocts his story about the DA being his brainchild and yatta yatta yatta. The point being, Marietta never told them about the coins. Marietta certainly never told them about the coins in Dumbledore's presence. After the initial shock of HBP, I've been under the impression that Dumbledore was very certain that he was going to die when he got back to the castle after the Horcrux thing. When I've re-read these scenes, I've been more interested in the Snape-Dumbledore question than anything else, but this is the first time that I've really read the Dumbledore-Harry scenes carefully. I propose that Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and while he's questioning Draco, he's actually telling the petrified Harry a few last things. I offer that perhaps Dumbledore even had Draco under an Imperius Curse or something similar-- we've seen Dumbledore perform magic without his wand. But I ask point blank-- who the hell is the leak in the DA? Marietta, who was so frightened of the curse that she wouldn't tell the teachers and the Minister of Magic exactly what had happened (and whose memory appeared to have been modified anyway)? Thoughts?
Wed, Apr. 5th, 2006 11:53 pm (UTC)
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) rachel_w
Wow... great points!
Okay, first con thought on it: What if Marrietta told him later on, after the effects of the curse had dimmed ... or, it was mentioned that she still had a bit of the rash when everyone returned to Hogwarts (I believe) -- what if she re-activated it during the summer?
Otherwise, I'm now going to be combing through all the members of the DA and seeing who might possibly have been the culprit. Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 12:09 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
I considered Marietta and her pimples, but you know... she seemed so freaking scared. So I put myself in her shoes.
Teenage girl. Very self conscious. Already broke out all over her face because she told that there was a meeting. I'd be thinking "Wow, what's going to happen to me if I offer any more details?"
I'll admit that she could be it, but even so-- who would she tell who would have told DRACO?
If she were going to tell someone-- who would it be? By the time summer gets there, it's clear that Voldemort is back, and Dumbledore is back in favor. Fudge has been replaced as a Minister. Lucius Malfoy is in prison... Those are the likely routes of information between Marietta and Draco-- somehow involving Umbridge and somehow involving Lucius. Or somehow involving Snape? But then, Draco truly doesn't appear to want Snape's help.
So, even back to Marietta-- if she does tell someone--and I'm not convinced she would-- how does that get back to Draco? Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 02:16 am (UTC)
celisnebula
What about Michael whathisname that Ginny dumped? Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 02:25 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
Michael Corner, whom Ginny dumped and who then was going out with Cho Chang, who had a falling out with Harry over whether or not Hermione's hex was ethical, dumped and whose best friend was the reluctant Marietta Edgecombe, who was the one who alerted Umbridge.
Yeah. I thought about him, too, actually.
And there is certainly the question of whether it was a malicious leak or not-- if it was actually kind of a second hand leak, if it was a case of stupidity outweighing malice... If it was even an involuntary leak. Clearly, Draco could put Rosemerta under his influence, so is it such a stretch that he could put a classmate under his influence?
Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 02:33 am (UTC)
celisnebula
I'm more inclined to think of it as a stupidity leak, from Michael Corner... he didn't strike me as a very prudent (or quiet) boy who would understand the stakes. While Draco could probably put him under the influence of the Imperious Curse, I don't honestly seem him as being smart enough to connect the dots in that way. The fact that he might've chosen to do that to Rosemerta on his own boggles my mind (though I suppose dear Aunt B might've given him some ideas). Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 02:43 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
Now, see, I think I disagree on that point. I think Draco is probably pretty sharp. A little slime-ball, perhaps, and utterly lacking in backbone, but, for instance, who do you think devised the flashing Potter Stinks badges? Crabbe? Goyle?
Maybe not a brilliant kid, but smart enough to figure out quite a lot on his own.
I want to know how Draco figured out how to get into the Room of Requirement. Sat, Apr. 8th, 2006 06:43 am (UTC)
4am_secret
Not to butt in, but something else I'm also curious about is just how much power is needed from a person to maintain the Imperius. It seems like you'd have to be pretty good at it to control someone relatively near you, but for Draco to be working primarily through the coins alone? That's a combination of different spells and a curse, he had all working together. I'm sure I'm probably missing something about it all, but it's still got to take some... *ahem* cunning ^.~ Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 04:50 pm (UTC)
jodel_from_aol
If Draco certainly overheard a piece of info in HBP by lurking in the library, it probably wasn't by accident. Indeed, lurking and eavesdropping are probably standard operating procedures for him, and have been for years. He could certainly have heard other useful information by lurking in OotP. Overhearling "Granger" and "Protean charm" are about all it would take. Nobody in Hogwarts seems to pay as much attention to possible listeners as they should. For that matter, the DA were discussing the Protean charm in the Hog's Head for the edification of Willy Widdershins and Mundungus Fletcher. How do we know that that info didn't get passed along as well as the fact that the DA existed? Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 12:12 am (UTC)
seaislewitch
I bet you are going to get a lot of fingers pointing at Zacharias Smith but he's not the sneak. It's too obvious. Anyway, just because Zach questions Harry about what happened the night his fellow Hufflepuff and teammate died, doesn't make him a snitch, right? Anyway...Someone saw Hermione researching things in the library. That's how Draco found out about poisoning the liquid. Someone saw her, looked over her shoulder or at the book after she left. Or perhaps a Slytherin heard overheard someone discussing it. Or Harry's might not be the only invisibility cloak around. Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 12:42 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
Draco overheard Hermione talking to Harry about potions in the library-- Hermione was warning Harry about the possibility of a love potion from Romilda Vane.
As for the coins, Hermione used a Protean Charm, which is an established charm. She gave the coins out at a DA meeting, and told the members then how she'd done it. So, to me, it's a bit of a stretch that Draco would arrive at the same conclusion by seeing a book about Protean Charms.
I think that's a similarity that is too pronounced to ignore. There's also the fact that Draco agreed that he got the idea from the DA coins. So, to me that suggests that someone had to have mentioned the charm.
I was going to say it would almost have to have been someone who was a seventh year at the time because there's no mention of anyone with spots, but in OotP, Hermione says she jinxed the parchment so that if anyone told Umbridge they'd regret it.
From a soap opera-ish perspective, Michael Corner would be a good candidate. But I don't know... Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 03:29 am (UTC)
velvetcandy
Completely off-topic, but I thought I'd throw this in... It seems apparent that Draco was polyjuice!Pince while Hermione and Harry were in the library. The text makes a big deal about shuffling noise being heard and then Pince showing up. That person was Draco. The coins... My first thought was Michael Corner as well, but I could be wrong. Not sure how, or if, this will play a larger part in the plot though. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 04:24 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
You know, I never even thought about Draco being Polyjuice!Pince, but that does work. I just assumed they were both there, and that Harry and Hermione saw Pince and assumed she was the one making the noise when it was really Draco.
Random.
If I'm Draco and you're Michael Corner, and I Polyjuice myself into Dean Thomas, can you tell me about the DA and not suffer the consequences?
In other words, to what extent does one temporarily become someone else? Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 05:07 am (UTC)
velvetcandy
I would think no because you don't actually become that other person; they still exist independent of what you've done, so you aren't actually them, you've merely taken on their appearance. Personally, I think this was another JKR error (although she does have a lot to keep straight, so I won't hold this against her). Unless it becomes important in the plot somehow, I think this may be a case where she thinks she said something but clearly she didn't, so we're supposed to infer it. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 11:10 am (UTC)
tree_and_leaf: Here via the Snitch?
That depends how Hermione's hex is engineered/ worded, though. She might not have considered the possibility of that sort of trickery: if the hex is activated by intentional, conscious, betrayal (i.e. if the trigger is a subjective state of the person, 'guilt' in the modern sense) rather than simply letting something out, then Michael would remain unhexed on this scenario, because he didn't, consciously/ subjectively betray the DA. Is it significant that the message left is 'SNEAK'? That might suggest that Hermione has built in a trigger for conscious betrayal, not inadvertent (since a sneak, by definition, is aware of what s/he is doing). Whereas a 'traitor' might be unwitting. (Of course, 'sneak' is also more of a schoolgirl word.) Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 02:58 pm (UTC)
velvetcandy: Re: Here via the Snitch?
By that definition, you wouldn't need to polyjuice at all; simply slip someone a few drops of veritaserum. They would have no choice but to tell the truth and inadvertently betray the group. You make a valid point, however I don't think Hermione would have thought that far ahead, as she's not one for much common sense. Hermione may have only anticipated that anyone speaking of the DA to a non-member was in fact betraying the group because I don't think she would have thought about the polyjuice and veritaserum possibilities. I really think the rules for this are black and white considering the person who made them (Hermione). Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 05:23 pm (UTC)
tree_and_leaf: Re: Here via the Snitch?
You're right, Hermione is a black and white person in a lot of ways - but I think she can also be quite calculating (I'd like to know what the Sorting Hat said to her, and I'd be willing to bet it considered putting her in Slytherin as well as in Ravenclaw) I have a feeling that Polyjuice may be easier to produce than Veritaserum, actually. Umbridge appears to be dependent on Snape for her Veritaserum, which implies that it needs a highly skilled potion brewer - a bit like Wolfsbane? On the other hand, a bunch of second years manage to knock together Polyjuice in a school toilet. Granted, Hermione is an exceptionally good student, but Malfoy should be well able to cope by sixth year (as he shows himself to be). But Veritaserum might be beyond him. In that case - assuming that Veritaserum is controlled and you can't just send off for it (indirectly confirmed by the fact that Umbridge asks Snape, who she suspects of DE membership and whom she knows to dislike her for the stuff) - Polyjuice might be a more practical method for Malfoy than Veritaserum, despite the fact that it involves an element of acting. Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 01:00 am (UTC)
sophierom
Does someone from the DA have to have told Draco directly? Could it have been that someone from the DA told a friend or teacher, who then told Draco? My wild theory of the evening is that Ginny told Fred and George, thinking it was a cool spell that could possibly be used for their shop. The twins, who joined the Order (?), told someone in that organization, thinking it was something the Order could use. So, the spy is in the Order, and the spy is ... ? Could be a flint, too. ;-D Interesting thoughts about HBP! Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 01:25 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
Shooting down the particular theory-- Fred and George were in the DA, so they knew.
But, yes, there could be an indirect link. Two Ravenclaws discussing the brilliant charm Hermione used and someone overhearing. Susan Bones telling her Aunt Amelia, who confessed it when she was killed.
We could go back to Snape discovering it through his Legilimency and telling Narcissa, who told Draco.
Draco could have put Angelina under an Imperius curse...
No idea. Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 01:33 am (UTC)
sophierom
Oops, completely forgot about Fred and George still being in school at that point. *shakes head* Where has my HP knowledge gone? Probably with all the other knowledge I thought I once had ... am going senile at 28, I tell you! ;-D But I'm still attracted to the idea of Fred and/or George telling someone in the Order. In some ways, I like the idea of ESE!McGonagall. I know it's not the case, but there's a nice symmetry to the Gryffindor gone bad and the Slytherin redeemed. And I feel that there's something odd about McGonagall's behavior in HBP, especially in that scene with Harry when she keeps pushing him to tell her what he knows. She's probably acting on behalf of the school or the Order, but it just feels wrong somehow. Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 02:27 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
I like the idea of someone in Gryffindor going bad, too. Such a clean house just annoys me. I'm hoping that JKR has something up her sleeve about them because it's just a little too convenient if all the Gryffindors are good and all the Slytherins are bad, you know? Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 09:51 am (UTC)
islandsmoke
Could the protection curse have lifted when they disbanded and it become sort of a "common knowledge" thing? Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 05:41 pm (UTC)
(Anonymous)
Could be, or could be that it was specifically protecting them from being ratted out to Umbridge-- Hermione specifies that, though I don't know how literally to take it. Thu, Apr. 6th, 2006 05:41 pm (UTC)
dazzleberry
that was me Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 12:43 am (UTC)
grinnifer: Two comments in one.
Well, I've not reread through it in a very long while, but I remember the DA being routed from the Room of Requierment durring one of their meetings. It could be as simple as: Umbridge was talking to Edgecombe when the coin changed. Or, it could have been mentioned early on when Edgecombe was confessing, before she saw her what curse did to her face.
I don't think the secrecy spell that Hermione used would differentiate between a DA member telling an Order member or Umbridge, (as in one of twins telling McGonnagle.) I think they would have been effected by the curse as well.
Also, Malfoy was very close to Umbridge and her Inquisitors. All they had to do (I'm rereading now, page 609: "You hop along and see if you can round up anymore of them Draco," she said. "Tell the others to look in thelibrary - anybody out of breath - check the bathrooms...") is to check and see what all the members had in common - a gold coin with a matching date and time on it. Likely that Draco would have learned about anything that Ubridge would have gotten from Edgecombe.
As for interesting bits to fixate on in HBP, I keep coming back to the lines from page 405 "Elf Tails":
" Don't try and make me feel guilty, it won't work!" said Harry forcefully. "What's Snape done?"
"I dunno, Harry, I shouldn'ta heard it at all! I - well, was comin' out of thte forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talking - well, arguin'. Didn't like to draw attention to meself, so I sorta skulked an' tried not ter listen, but it was a - well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block it out."
"Well?" Harry urged him, as Hagrid shuffled his enormous feet uneasily.
"Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted and' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it anymore-"
"Do what?"
"I dunno, Harry it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all - anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him."
My thoughts are that Snape and Dumbledore did have a plan worked out, that would keep Draco "innocent" from ever having to kill somebody (and split his soul up) and that Snape wasn't happy about it at all. I think that's why at the end, Dumbledore begs Snape, and why Snape has the look of hatred upon his face - not because he hates Dumbledore, but because he hates the position he's been placed in.
Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 04:16 am (UTC)
dazzleberry: Re: Two comments in one.
Being a Snape ficcer, I tend to fixate on Snape's role as well, sometimes to the point of ignoring other things that are going on.
As for Marietta confessing, my biggest argument against that would be that Umbridge doesn't mention it, and that's the sort of thing she'd be tossing up as evidence of the organization. As it is, she can't offer anything more concrete than the list of names and the fact that they were meeting that night-- a meeting which never took place.
As for the secrecy spell, I tended towards agreeing with you on that point, actually. It seems that if you're going to bother attaching a curse against telling Umbridge, you might as well attach it against telling anyone else who might be a danger.
However... in chapter 27, Seamus is 'brought along to his first ever D.A. meeting by Dean' So, apparently the kids can tell some people at least.
Perhaps permission must be granted? In which case, I wonder whom Harry/Hermione/whoever granted permission to be told and was then ratted out by. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 04:20 am (UTC)
grinnifer: Re: Two comments in one.
*laughs* Damnit, now you're going to have me rereading the book through, aren't you?
You're right, "first rule of DA is you don't talk about DA..." but if so, how do you get more DA members? -I'm going to have to go back and scrutinize all the DA mentions/scenes now... Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 04:21 am (UTC)
dazzleberry: Re: Two comments in one.
Someone suggested it was a Flint, but I like speculating better :) Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 02:26 am (UTC)
0x
OT: what's the circle on your layout? Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 02:56 am (UTC)
ook
The circle looks to be someone's astrological chart. :) Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 03:59 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
Right you are :) It's from my chart Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 03:56 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
The circle is a portion of my own natal chart. The numbers in the background, in case you were curious, is part of an ephemeris. The text is various descriptions of Leonine traits. The fiery image to the left, I'm disappointed to say, doesn't show half as nicely on the journal as it does on the original background-- it's a solar flare, and the flames look something like an angel rising off the surface of the sun... Actually, since I'm clearly in a mood to brag a bit, why don't I just link the image? http://dazzlerazz.com/images/lj/leo.jpg*is quite proud of it* I made it myself and it's the only graphic I've ever made that looks like anything worth sharing ;) /more than you ever wanted to know about the circle Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 02:36 pm (UTC)
0x
^_^ It's interesting and very beautiful. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 03:00 am (UTC)
hhbarmaid
Here from the ![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/community.gif) daily_snitchInteresting! My idea would be that Marietta told Umbridge in the initial conversation and that Umbridge told Draco -- or maybe even her whole squad -- about the coins. I think she would want them to look out for them being used again. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 04:20 am (UTC)
dazzleberry
Welcome!
One of my arguments against this line of reasoning is that the kids still have the coins in HBP, because Hermione activates them again. If Umbridge the Strict knew about the coins, why didn't she confiscate them?
Umbridge was lacking evidence to get Harry expelled for having organized the DA, and surely those coins would have been offered up as proof to the Minister, right? Umbridge had no reason to keep Fudge out of the loop on that point.
So, I think Marietta is the obvious assumption, but the more I think about her, the less she seems to fit, imo. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 02:10 pm (UTC)
rlginny
How would she have known / proved which one was the fake galleon? They looked like real galleons and I'm sure she wouldn't be able to get away with just stealing all of the money the kids had. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 02:09 pm (UTC)
rlginny
My assumption was that the curse or hex was activated if one KNOWINGLY betrayed the group. So if you were talking to a polyjuiced!member (someone who had polyjuiced themselves into one of your friends) you wouldn't know they weren't one of you so you wouldn't be knowingly betraying the group and nothing would happen. And if someone accidently overheard you (didn't Neville or Luna say something about checking the coins? Maybe someone overheard them) I doubt the hex would hit.
It hit Marietta because she willingly, purposefully and knowingly went to Umbridge with the intention of giving the group away. Fri, Apr. 7th, 2006 02:54 pm (UTC)
snorkackcatcher
Hmm .. I must admit that made me blink when I first read it, but I assumed it was just one of those odd continuity things that we're supposed to assume became common knowledge off-screen (like Ron knowing about Draco's Hand of Glory, despite the fact that he didn't buy it when they were there). Perhaps the jinx became inactice when the group stopped meeting, and those who'd been in it the year before started bragging, and so the details became known to both Draco and Dumbledore? Wed, May. 3rd, 2006 06:28 pm (UTC)
ladybluestar
I think it quite plausible that there was no leak at all. After all, Slytherins are known for their cunning. Even before Marietta came forward, they had to suspect that something was going on. And the list of the core members would be rather simple to figure out. So, you start watching those people. You see them playing with coin a lot--you've heard mention of the Protean Charm (perhaps overheard)...you start putting some things together. Or, some Ravenclaw overhears DA Ravenclaws, mentions to a friend in Slytherin, word reaches Draco... It's not that implausible. I do think that the main lesson here is cautiousness and counter-intelligence. |
